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pawelemtica
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Dysk / partycje Win98se
06. Feb 2018 at 22:19
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Witam,

Mam pytanie odnośnie ograniczeń win98se w kwestii wielkości dysku. Problem polega na tym, że kończę kompletować części do mojego retro i w miejscu, w którym zamówiłem zasilacze, mogę wziąć od razu dysk w jednej przesyłce.

Tylko teraz nie pamiętam jednej rzeczy lub też mógłby to ktoś zweryfikować.

Czy win98se nie jest w stanie rozpoznać hardware powyżej ok 120GB czy ma problem z obsługą partycji powyżej tych około 120GB.

Dysk ma być fizycznie najlepiej max dajmy na to 80GB czy może byc np. 160 i podzielić to na mniejsze?

Pozdr.
  

Jeśli są błędy w moich postach to znaczy, że piszę z tel Smiley
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Batyra
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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #1 - 06. Feb 2018 at 22:25
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Zastanów się czy nie wolisz karty CF. Jest nieporównywalnie wygodniejsza od HDD, choćby dlatego ze bez problemu, jak pendrive możesz do współczesnego komputera podłączać i przerzucać dane


BTW.
zanim zaczniesz pisać posty, proszę przywitaj się z nami, napisz coś o sobie...

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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #2 - 06. Feb 2018 at 22:28
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W9X obsługa dysków jest w kwestii biosu,a więc od tego zależy czy system to zobaczy czy nie. Fat32 obsługuje do 2TB.
  

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sajmon
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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #3 - 06. Feb 2018 at 23:03
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Nie wiem dlaczego ale ja zawsze miałem problem na fat32 z większymi partycjami niż 32gb.Czasem zdarzały się błędy zapisu /odczytu . Zauważyłem to na kilku moich płytach .Raz nawet wyparowały całe dane z dysku 80gb w toshibie tecra 8000 .Przy partycjach 32gb nie zdarzyło mi sie to ani razu
  

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pawelemtica
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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #4 - 06. Feb 2018 at 23:07
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Batyra wrote on 06. Feb 2018 at 22:25:
Zastanów się czy nie wolisz karty CF.


To samo można osiągnąć z większym pendrive. Kiedyś zastanawiałem się nad CF, ale nie jestem przekonany co do żywotności karty w przypadku ciągłego odczytu i zapisu bo komórki, mają ograniczoną żywotność, kiedyś chciałem mieć szybki i bezgłośny terminal na debianie, gdzie dyskiem był pendrive usb 3.1 z odczytem/zapisem 390/110, wytrzymał 3 miesiące i siadł od ciągłego mielenia.

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napisz coś o sobie...


Nie jestem przekonany co do tego, aby pozostawiać w sieci nadmiar niepotrzebnych informacji Wink
  

Jeśli są błędy w moich postach to znaczy, że piszę z tel Smiley
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Batyra
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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #5 - 06. Feb 2018 at 23:13
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Nie chcemy znac Twojego numeru konta.
Napisz jakie komputery zbierasz, comchcesz złożyć itp.

Jakby Ci to powiedzieć - jak przychodzisz gdzies to ładnie powiedzieć „dzień dobry”  Wink
  
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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #6 - 06. Feb 2018 at 23:14
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pendrive nie będzie miał ultra dma , druga sprawa pendrive nie jest przeznaczony do ciągłego zapisu /odczytu , a na CF jeszcze dodatkowo wersji industrial mozesz młucić ostro
  

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Re: Dysk / partycje Win98se
Reply #7 - 07. Feb 2018 at 08:23
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Tu masz wszystko wyjaśnione

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History of BIOS and IDE limits

ATA Specification (for IDE disks) - the 137 GB limit
At most 65536 cylinders (numbered 0-65535), 16 heads (numbered 0-15), 255 sectors/track (numbered 1-255), for a maximum total capacity of 267386880 sectors (of 512 bytes each), that is, 136902082560 bytes (137 GB). In Sept 2001, the first drives larger than this (160 GB Maxtor Diamondmax) appeared.

BIOS Int 13 - the 8.5 GB limit
At most 1024 cylinders (numbered 0-1023), 256 heads (numbered 0-255), 63 sectors/track (numbered 1-63) for a maximum total capacity of 8455716864 bytes (8.5 GB). This is a serious limitation today. It means that DOS cannot use present day large disks.

The 528 MB limit
If the same values for c,h,s are used for the BIOS Int 13 call and for the IDE disk I/O, then both limitations combine, and one can use at most 1024 cylinders, 16 heads, 63 sectors/track, for a maximum total capacity of 528482304 bytes (528MB), the infamous 504 MiB limit for DOS with an old BIOS. This started being a problem around 1993, and people resorted to all kinds of trickery, both in hardware (LBA), in firmware (translating BIOS), and in software (disk managers). The concept of `translation' was invented (1994): a BIOS could use one geometry while talking to the drive, and another, fake, geometry while talking to DOS, and translate between the two.

The 2.1 GB limit (April 1996)
Some older BIOSes only allocate 12 bits for the field in CMOS RAM that gives the number of cylinders. Consequently, this number can be at most 4095, and only 4095*16*63*512=2113413120 bytes are accessible. The effect of having a larger disk would be a hang at boot time. This made disks with geometry 4092/16/63 rather popular. And still today many large disk drives come with a jumper to make them appear 4092/16/63. See also over2gb.htm. Other BIOSes would not hang but just detect a much smaller disk, like 429 MB instead of 2.5 GB.

The 3.2 GB limit
There was a bug in the Phoenix 4.03 and 4.04 BIOS firmware that would cause the system to lock up in the CMOS setup for drives with a capacity over 3277 MB. See over3gb.htm.

The 4.2 GB limit (Feb 1997)
Simple BIOS translation (ECHS=Extended CHS, sometimes called `Large disk support' or just `Large') works by repeatedly doubling the number of heads and halving the number of cylinders shown to DOS, until the number of cylinders is at most 1024. Now DOS and Windows 95 cannot handle 256 heads, and in the common case that the disk reports 16 heads, this means that this simple mechanism only works up to 8192*16*63*512=4227858432 bytes (with a fake geometry with 1024 cylinders, 128 heads, 63 sectors/track). Note that ECHS does not change the number of sectors per track, so if that is not 63, the limit will be lower. See over4gb.htm.

The 7.9 GB limit
Slightly smarter BIOSes avoid the previous problem by first adjusting the number of heads to 15 (`revised ECHS'), so that a fake geometry with 240 heads can be obtained, good for 1024*240*63*512=7927234560 bytes.

The 8.4 GB limit
Finally, if the BIOS does all it can to make this translation a success, and uses 255 heads and 63 sectors/track (`assisted LBA' or just `LBA') it may reach 1024*255*63*512=8422686720 bytes, slightly less than the earlier 8.5 GB limit because the geometries with 256 heads must be avoided. (This translation will use for the number of heads the first value H in the sequence 16, 32, 64, 128, 255 for which the total disk capacity fits in 1024*H*63*512, and then computes the number of cylinders C as total capacity divided by (H*63*512).)

The 33.8 GB limit (August 1999)
The next hurdle comes with a size over 33.8 GB. The problem is that with the default 16 heads and 63 sectors/track this corresponds to a number of cylinders of more than 65535, which does not fit into a short. Many BIOSes couldn't handle such disks. (See, e.g., Asus upgrades for new flash images that work.) Linux kernels older than 2.2.14 / 2.3.21 need a patch. See IDE problems with 34+ GB disks below.

The 137 GB limit (Sept 2001)
As mentioned above, the old ATA protocol uses 16+4+8 = 28 bits to specify the sector number, and hence cannot address more than 2^28 sectors. ATA-6 describes an extension that allows the addressing of 2^48 sectors, a million times as much. There is support in very recent kernels.

The 2 TiB limit
With 32-bit sector numbers, one can address 2 TiB. A lot of software will have to be rewritten once disks get larger.

Hard drives over 8.4 GB are supposed to report their geometry as 16383/16/63. This in effect means that the `geometry' is obsolete, and the total disk size can no longer be computed from the geometry, but is found in the LBA capacity field returned by the IDENTIFY command. Hard drives over 137.4 GB are supposed to report an LBA capacity of 0xfffffff = 268435455 sectors (137438952960 bytes). Now the actual disk size is found in the new 48-capacity field.


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127 GB / 128 GB / 137 GB maximum hard drive capacity in Windows 98

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Maximum Sizes on FAT32 Volumes

The FAT32 volume must have at least 65,527 clusters. The maximum number of clusters on a FAT32 volume is 4,177,918. Windows 2000 creates volumes up to 32 GB, but you can use larger volumes created by other operating systems such as Windows 98. Table 3.11 lists FAT32 size limits.

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Hard Disk Drives Capacity Limits

128 PB (144 PB)

All

None so far, as this limit is far from being reached, but probably a BIOS upgrade.

256 TB

Windows 2000, XP, 2003 and Vista using NTFS

This is the 32-bit NTFS file system limit. No solution so far, but probably a new NTFS version using more than 32 bits to address the clusters.

16 TB

Windows 2000, XP, 2003 and Vista using NTFS

Use a partitioning utility or the command Format c: /a:xxxx to increase the size of the clusters allowing partitions up to 256 TB (see page 4 for more details).

2 TB

Windows ME, 2000, XP, 2003 and Vista using FAT32

Change file system to NTFS.

2 TB

Windows 2000, XP, 2003 and Vista using NTFS

These operating systems don’t allow the boot partition to be larger than 2 TB. There are two solutions: create a bootable partition with 2 TB and create a second partition with the rest of your hard drive’s capacity or if you want a single partition create a dynamic volume.

128 GB (137 GB)

Windows 98

No solution. Upgrade your OS with at least Windows ME and execute the procedures described below.

128 GB (137 GB)

Windows ME, NT, 2000 and XP without any SP installed.

BIOS upgrade AND running a utility.

32 GB

Windows 95

No solution. Upgrade your OS with at least Windows 98 (keep in mind that Windows 98 has its own 128 GB limit).

7.84 GB (8 GB)

All but MS-DOS

BIOS upgrade. Besides that Windows NT can’t boot from partitions larger than 7.84 GB, you will need to create a bootable 7.84 GB partition and put the rest of the hard disk drive available space on one or more extra partitions.

7.84 GB (8 GB)

MS-DOS 6.x

No solution. Upgrade your OS with at least Windows 95 AND upgrade your BIOS.

2 GB

All

This is the FAT-16 limit. You can divide your hard disk drive into several 2 GB partitions or use an operating system that supports FAT-32 or NTFS to access your entire hard disk drive into a single partition.

512 MB

MS-DOS 5.0

Upgrade your operating system.

504 MB (528 M)

All

BIOS upgrade.

128 MB

MS-DOS 4.0

Upgrade your operating system.

32 MB

MS-DOS 3.x

Upgrade your operating system.

16 MB

MS-DOS below 3.0

Upgrade your operating system.

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We said that the smallest unit that the hard disk drive controller can access is the sector. When Microsoft created DOS, however, they decided that the smallest unit the operating system would access wouldn’t be the sector, but a group of sectors, which they called cluster.

The operating system needs a table listing which file is using which sector and the problem in accessing each sector directly is that you need a table long enough to accommodate all sectors available in the hard disk drive, and also make provision for bigger drives that may be launched in the future. For example, for our 250 GB hard disk drive we would need a list with 488,397,168 entries. Back in 1983 when the first hard disk drive was launched with only 5 MB, listing all sectors would take up a lot of space of the hard disk drive.

DOS below version 3.0 used a system called FAT-12, meaning a File Access Table (the table we were talking about above) using 12-bit entries and using 4 KB clusters – i.e., instead of accessing each sector directly the operating system accessed a group of eight sectors per time (4 KB / 512 bytes = 8). With 12 bits you have 2^12 entries on the abovementioned table, i.e., 4,096 entries. Since each entry maps to a 4 KB cluster, with the FAT-12 system you could have hard disk drives up to 16 MB (4,096 x 4 KB). So DOS below 3.0 wouldn’t recognize drives above 16 MB. Since at this time hard disk drives had 5 MB and 10 MB in capacity, this system would work just fine. By the way, FAT-12 system is still used on floppies.

With DOS 3.x Microsoft released FAT-16 system, which at this time used 14-bit addressing (and not 16-bit as the name suggests). With 14 bits the number of entries on the table was of 16,384, and the size of the cluster was of 2 KB (i.e., each cluster was a group of four sectors). Making the math you will find out that with DOS 3.x the operating system could recognize only up to 32 MB (16,384 x 2 KB) hard disk drives.

Then with DOS 4.0 Microsoft expanded FAT-16 to real 16-bit addressing, meaning 65,536 entries on the table. Still using 2 KB clusters this allowed the operating system to recognize hard disk drives up to 128 MB.

With DOS 5.0 instead of increasing the size of the FAT Microsoft decided to play around with cluster size. At the time you’d format your hard disk drive, the operating system would choose the cluster size according to the capacity of your hard disk drive (see table below). This DOS version, however, allowed clusters only up to 8 KB, allowing the operating system to recognize hard disk drives partitions up to 512 MB (65,536 x 8 KB).

Partition Size

Cluster Size (FAT-16)

Operating System

Up to 128 MB

2 KB

DOS 5.0 and up

From 128 MB to 256 MB

4 KB

DOS 5.0 and up

From 256 MB to 512 MB

8 KB

DOS 5.0 and up

From 512 MB to 1 GB

16 KB

DOS 6.0 and up

From 1 GB to 2 GB

32 KB

DOS 6.0 and up

From 2 GB to 4 GB

64 KB

Windows NT only

Finally with DOS 6.0 Microsoft expanded the above table to allow 16 KB and 32 KB clusters, making the operating system to recognize hard disk drives up to 2 GB (65,536 x 32 KB). This is the final version of FAT-16 as we know it today and was the same file system used by the first version of Windows 95. So FAT-16 file system still has a 2 GB limit per partition. This means that under FAT-16 you can only install a 4 GB hard disk drive by creating 2 GB partitions, i.e., your hard disk drive would be divided into a C: drive with 2 GB and a D: drive with 2 GB.

As a side note, Windows NT allowed the use of FAT-16 partitions with 64 KB clusters (see table above), however this configuration isn’t supported by other operating systems; partitions formatted with this configuration can’t be recognized by other operating systems.

Microsoft could have gone forever increasing the cluster size instead of increasing the number of positions inside the allocation table, but this leads to a problem called slack space. Since the smallest unit on the hard disk drive the operating system can access is the cluster (and not the sector) each file when stored on the hard disk drive must have a size that is an exact multiple of the cluster size. For example, on a 2 GB hard disk drive using FAT-16 a 100 KB file would take up four clusters, or 128 KB, because the hard drive is using 32 KB clusters (100 KB / 32 KB = 3.125, a broken value, so it has necessarily to use four clusters). This extra 28 KB has nothing inside, it is wasted. So when using big clusters, a lot of space on the hard disk drive is wasted just because inside the hard disk drive each file must have a size that is an exact multiple of the cluster size being used.

With Windows 95 OSR2 (launched in 1996 it was Windows 95’s second maintenance version; also known as Windows 95 B) Microsoft launched FAT-32, which became more known when Windows 98 was released, two years later. Using 32-bit addressing it could, at least in theory, access disks up to 2 TB accessing sectors directly instead of using clusters, what would eliminate the slack space problem. FAT-32, however, continues to use clusters:

Partition Size

Cluster Size (FAT-32)

Up to 256 MB

Not Available

From 256 MB to 8 GB

4 KB

From 8 GB to 16 GB

8 KB

From 16 GB to 32 GB

16 KB

From 32 GB to 2 TB *

32 KB

* In theory FAT-32 supports partitions bigger than 2 TB – for example, up to 128 TB if 32 KB clusters are used (2^32 x 32 KB = 128 TB). However, due to a limitation on the hard disk drive boot sector, which uses a 32 bit variable to number the physical sectors present on the hard disk drive, the practical limit of FAT-32 is of 2 TB (2^32 x 512 bytes per sector = 2 TB).

So the slack problem is still around with FAT-32.

This is not the only problem. Even with FAT-32 Windows 95 OSR2 can’t access partitions over 32 GB and Windows 98 can’t access partitions over 128 GB. Windows ME does not face this problem.

Windows NT, 2000 and XP (and probably Vista) can’t format FAT-32 partitions over 32 GB, even though they can recognize hard disk drives formatted with FAT-32 under Windows ME up to the 2 TB limit.

Another problem with FAT-32 is that files can’t be bigger than 4 GB. With people nowadays editing hi-def videos and even the most newbie user authoring and burning his/her own DVDs, this is a real limitation.

FAT-32 also allows only each partition to hold up to 4,194,304 files. Probably you will reach this and the above limit way before the 2 TB maximum partition size limit.

The solution to all these problems is to use a different file system, and if you are a Windows user the most indicated is to use NTFS, which is a file system introduced by Windows NT back in 1993 and is natively available on Windows NT, 2000, XP, 2003 and Vista. In fact this is the recommended file system if you use one of these operating systems. We will discuss more about this file system in the next page.

In fact, the solution for each one of the limits explained on this page is to upgrade your operating system to a newer version.
  
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